On Somalia
Free Talk Live
A Note on the Hosts by Alexander S. Peak
Ian Freeman favours a stateless society, but does not call himself an anarchist, since the term anarchy is unfortunately associated with chaos or violence by a vast number of people who have never read the works of anarchist theorists. Instead, he calls himself a voluntaryist or a free marketeer.
Mark Edge is a minarchist, which means he favours an extremely tiny state. He has expressed support for panarchy, however, which essentially means that he believes people should be free to try anarchism if they wish.
Tuesday, 5 May 2009
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01:46:03
Ian Freeman:
It’s not fair to bring Somalia into a discussion of a paradigm shifted voluntary society because—
Nick Michelewicz:
Some voluntaryists will mention Somalia as—has a, you know—
Ian Freeman:
And you can—
Nick Michelewicz:
You can start a radio station with no F.C.C.
Ian Freeman:
It’s true. Well, in Somalia there are some things that have changed and have gotten better in the absence of the state, but—
Mark Edge:
Some things.
Ian Freeman:
—my point here is that it’s not fair to say that our voluntary society would be anything like Somalia, because Somalia happened as a result of strife and turmoil and violence—and what grew out of that violence—what we’re talking about is a peaceful evolution to a voluntary society, and how society is going to have to make that choice to go there instead of it being a firefight that brings us there, and isn’t that what you’re talking about, Rob?—your vision as well?
Rob (caller):
Oh, yeah; I think that there’s always a danger in having a literally revolutionary overthrow of government. I think that anytime you have a revolution, you’re gonna have individuals who are aggressed against, and anytime you have individuals who are aggressed against in order to bring about a particular set of circumstances, those people are going to have a very legitimate gripe against those people who set up that set of circumstances. So, I don’t think there’s any real good way to have any sort of armed revolution bringing about a free market, and having it be something good.
Ian Freeman:
It just leaves the space open for a new strong-man. That’s all it does whenever violence happens and leads to revolution, it just—as it is in Somalia, leads the strong-men to begin competing for the place of power over all the rest. And that’s why we need to avoid the violent thing.
Saturday, 19 September 2009
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00:28:12
Ian Freeman:
Oh, but is it right to invade Somalia? Obama’s finally done his own invading, right? I mean, he was just continuing the Afghan thing; now he’s actually invaded Somalia.
Mark Edge:
Yep.
Ian Freeman:
And where was the news on that, by the way? I’d like to point that out. When the invasion of Somalia was happening this last week—and, by the way, the [U.S.] federal government did invade Somalia this past week—you never saw any news—I didn’t even see it on the Drudge Report—it wasn’t there.
Mark Edge:
America doesn’t realise that it’s at war in Somalia. America doesn’t realise that it’s at war in Afghanistan, and losing—getting destroyed.
Ian Freeman:
But Americans do realise that Patrick Swayze died of cancer this week. That’s what was getting the headline!
Friday, 19 February 2010
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00:18:05
Ryan (caller):
What would you say to within the next twenty-four hours?—it’s called a plane ticket to Somalia.
Mark Edge:
Well, Somalia—this is the claim on, when it comes to anarchy, that, “Well, oh, if you like anarchy, go check out Somalia.” And I think you could make a better claim that Afghanistan, where the United States has been bombing the crap out of them for the last seven years, is probably a better picture of what, in fact, anarchy is, because they’re going in there and they’ve taken whatever social order has sprung up and they’ve messed it up and destroyed it. In Somalia, they have government, it’s just not the government the U.N. wants. It’s a bunch of warlords that tell a certain amount of people what it is they can do and what they can’t do. It’s not cohesive, they don’t have big buildings, but honestly they don’t have that in a lot of places.
00:25:47
Ian Freeman:
And to the question about Somalia, “Why don’t you just go to Somalia if you want anarchy?”—well I don’t want “anarchy,” I want a voluntary society, one based on consensual and natural order.
Mark Edge:
Right. Does that sound like something that’s going on in Somalia?
Ian Freeman:
No, and the people in Somalia got to where they are today because of a violent overthrow. Because of—
Mark Edge:
Because the U.N. just can’t leave their [Somalia’s] government well-enough alone; they [the U.N.] just can’t leave their [Somalia’s] government alone because their [Somalia’s] government doesn’t fit into whatever paradigm it is they [the U.N.] feel it should.
Ian Freeman:
To get to a voluntary society, to get to a consensual-based society, it has to involve a paradigm shift, it has to involve peaceful evolution, and that's not what happened in Somalia; so, no, I have no interest in going there.
00:27:27
Paul (caller):
If they say, “Oh, look, there’s a country without a strong, cohesive central government, so that must be exactly what you’re supporting,” that makes about as much sense as to say that, “North Korea is what somebody who supports a constitutional republic is supporting.” There are different kinds of societies, and the amount of violence and coercion in Somalia, I don’t think is anything a voluntaryist would support.
